Serious Question About Nursing Homes

[Janet]

Ladies, a friend and I were talking the other day. She is younger than I am and already worried about old age and nursing homes. Well, her worries got me to thinking too so I thought maybe you all can help ease our worries.

I'm not even sure how to start, it's much easier talking about it. For instance, Rick and I are married (duh...lol) It's in the future and Rick or I have to go to a nursing home while the other one doesn't. She said that the one NOT in the nursing home would lose most everything because it would be needed to take care of the one in the nursing home. Is that true??? Is it a good thing that I have Mom's home just in my name or will it make a difference since we are married? She has me scared to death.

Since we don't have the best marriage, I don't want to lose everything we've worked for. My gosh, I would resent him even more than I do now. So tell me...is this a possibility?

She said if they were still alive and doing well at 60, they were planning on divorcing so there hopefully would be enough time between the divorce and needing a nursing home so the nursing home couldn't come back on them. She said they were going to put their house in one of their names, but didn't know which one yet.

I told her if she puts it in his name, what happens if she should go into a nursing home first and visa versa. She didn't know of course.

I tell you, this has really got me to thinking now. I don't want to lose everything and be put in an old folks home instead of a nice nursing home. Hopefully both of us will die of a heart attack or something and not need a nursing home, but this really has me worried.

Any thoughts? (I realize we all probably won't be here, but ya never know).

[DianaB]

Wow!! I don't know. Those are good questions. Where did your friend get her information from? It would probably be better to put things in your kids names ahead of time, I would think.

[Janet]

Well I had thought of that too like when I got Mom's house, I was going to put Ricky's name on it too and the attorney said "heaven forbid he have to file bankruptcy, because then I would lose the house". Wow...stuck between a rock and a hard place to me.

I don't like my friends idea about divorcing though because if for instance she put it in his name he could tell her to get lost and everything be his.

Her information didn't come from anyone or anywhere that I'm aware of. We just got in this conversation, talking about our parents. She lost her dad like I did and then her Mom lived with her, but passed while living with her. So we just kept the conversation going and WOW...it just gave me something to think (worry) about...lol. I mean it takes a lot to be in a nursing home.

[gja1000]

I'm going to see if I can answer some of these things for you below in your post.

Ladies, a friend and I were talking the other day. She is younger than I am and already worried about old age and nursing homes. Well, her worries got me to thinking too so I thought maybe you all can help ease our worries.

I'm not even sure how to start, it's much easier talking about it. For instance, Rick and I are married (duh...lol) It's in the future and Rick or I have to go to a nursing home while the other one doesn't. She said that the one NOT in the nursing home would lose most everything because it would be needed to take care of the one in the nursing home. The spouse not in the NH gets to keep the house, and a car - but I do know it cannot be a new car, there is a cap on how much the car can be worth. Also, the spouse gets to keep their own social security and pension, but the SS and pension of the person in the NH is used for NH care Is that true??? Is it a good thing that I have Mom's home just in my name or will it make a difference since we are married? She has me scared to death. Yes, having your mom's house in your name alone will protect it - at least is does in Texas, that might be a question for an Indiana attorney to be sure of the IN laws

Since we don't have the best marriage, I don't want to lose everything we've worked for. My gosh, I would resent him even more than I do now. So tell me...is this a possibility? no, unless the laws are different in IN and I don't think so, because this is a federal law, protecting the spouse, I think. Again, i'd check with an IN attorney to be sure.

She said if they were still alive and doing well at 60, they were planning on divorcing so there hopefully would be enough time between the divorce and needing a nursing home so the nursing home couldn't come back on them. She said they were going to put their house in one of their names, but didn't know which one yet. You might end up putting the house in the name of the one that ends up in the NH though, how could you know which one was likely to NOT go into the NH?

I told her if she puts it in his name, what happens if she should go into a nursing home first and visa versa. She didn't know of course. exactly!

I tell you, this has really got me to thinking now. I don't want to lose everything and be put in an old folks home instead of a nice nursing home. Hopefully both of us will die of a heart attack or something and not need a nursing home, but this really has me worried.

Any thoughts? (I realize we all probably won't be here, but ya never know).

I also think it would be worth consulting an attorney that specializes in elder care to see how this would all play out in your state. But I am sure the spouse does not have to give up everything - that just wouldn't be right if the spouse not in a NH had to live on the streets so that the other one could be in a NH. There are no easy solutions, that's for sure.

[gja1000]

Well I had thought of that too like when I got Mom's house, I was going to put Ricky's name on it too and the attorney said "heaven forbid he have to file bankruptcy, because then I would lose the house". Wow...stuck between a rock and a hard place to me.

I don't like my friends idea about divorcing though because if for instance she put it in his name he could tell her to get lost and everything be his.

Her information didn't come from anyone or anywhere that I'm aware of. We just got in this conversation, talking about our parents. She lost her dad like I did and then her Mom lived with her, but passed while living with her. So we just kept the conversation going and WOW...it just gave me something to think (worry) about...lol. I mean it takes a lot to be in a nursing home. Yes, it does cost a lot to be in a NH and I know that my mom doesn't have enough money to afford one. I do know the Affordable Care Act has many provisions to increase the amount of help you can get in the home to encourage people to keep loved ones at home as long as possible. The cost to keep someone at home, even for quite a bit of care and help is about 1/2 of the NH costs. I'll probably have to do that if mom has to go into the NH because she doesn't have enough monthly income to pay for a NH. She has a little savings that we could supplement her monthly income to pay for a NH for a few months, but not for long. I don't think I'll have to worry about that with Gary, he will likely not have to go into a NH, but for me, who knows. I'm certainly not going to divorce him! LOL!!! Actually if he did have to go to a NH, he can go into a VA nursing home because he is 100% VA disabled - but the closest one is 90 miles away :eek:

It is certainly a dilemma!

[gja1000]

http://www.elderlawanswers.com/Resources/Article.asp?scope=IN&key=keym

Here is a website where you can search by state about the Medicaid laws and spouses in the NH.

[Janet]

See....I told you I learn so much from you. I'm so glad the one not in a nursing home won't lose everything. That was so scary to think about. I'm sure my friend will be happy to find out too. She has always been one to worry about things, whether real or not.

Thanks for the link, I'll be checking it out and hopefully I will be able to understand it...lol.

[judy]

Thanks Gayle! This is a good website!

I have to call my financial manager (not that are a lot of finances to manage!). I do have an annuity, a house, a pension and SS. I have gotten a will form from the teachers' union. I have to sit down with Jessie and Steve about some details, and I have to find out what to do with my $ and my house. I believe in NYS, everything has to be in somebody else's name five years before you end up in a NH. I'm not about to put things in Jessie and Steve's names now, but, at some point, I might.

If I don't, the proceeds from the house and the $ I have go to the NH until it is used up. Then, Medicare or Medicaid pays for it. I have no desire for the state to get my house. I would like Jessie to get whatever she can for it. I don't have enough money to worry about.

It is a dilemma! I want full control over my property, but don't want her to lose it if I end up in a home before I transfer it.

[gja1000]

It is a dilemma, Judy. Fortunately for me, my daughter's husband makes a very good income (now) so I'm not going to worry about giving them my house. If I have to go into the NH, I will have them sell my house and use the money to pay for NH care till it runs out, hopefully, it won't run out. I will be single when that happens so I won't have to worry about my spouse.

[judy]

I don't have to worry about Jessie getting my house. Steve doesn't make any money, but they won't be set for life because of my house! I would just hate for the NH to get it instead of her.

It is sad to have to say that you will be single. It is just so unpredictable as to how life works out, after all of our planning!

[Janet]

You're right Judy. This thread has turned kind of sad. I was so upset with my friend for bringing it up in the first place. Then of course I worry about it. I want to make sure Ricky gets everything. Guess I need to start planning. We wanted to get Mom's taken care of first and it should be finished by the end of April or first of May. Then we will be getting our Wills made.

[gja1000]

Judy, it is sad to say that I know I will be single at the end of my life - but it is reality. I live with this everyday, and I think about it often. I think (I hope) it will help me deal with it when he is gone. The truth is that 50% of the people with the diagnosis of heart failure die within 5 years and 25% more within 7 years. Gary has been diagnosed for 8 1/2 years, so he is living on borrowed time - because - he has so many other health problems, all of which, complicate heart failure. There is no doubt he would already be gone if he were not married to a health professional. Now, that is the rational side of me - I know when it actually happens I will be a basket case - but it will not be a surprise.

I'm sorry this thread has turned sad, but I never say these things to anyone. It helps to be able to say them here. it does cause a lump in my throat, but I need to get it out sometimes.

[Janet]

You go right ahead Gayle, well always be here for you. I wish I could give you a hug, you means so much to me.

[judy]

I think you are right to keep the reality somewhere in your mind, but we are here for you whenever you want to bring it up. I do the same with Jessie, and I did it with my mother, who also had heaert failure.

One breath at a time.

[DianaB]

We all realize that Gary's health is fragile and that you do a wonderful job of making sure he's in the best health that he can be in. I know that I couldn't do as good of a job as you do because I don't understand the medical field. It shows how much you love Gary. Should anything happen to Gary you can rest assured that you have definitely given him the best quality of life that is within your reach. You are a good wife!!

[Blueyes]

We are in the same boat Gayle. Our plans have to be made a little differently than most people. There is a rule her about Spousal Impoverishment. When my mom had a stroke and had to go to a nursing home, my dad got to keep their house and his retirement. Her SS went to the nursing home. They only had one car, but he did have to make me beneficiary of his life insurance.

[judy]

My Dad was in the same boat as you both, Gayle and Betsi. He did everything possible for her, and gave her everything. When she died, he told me he felt guilty because she always wanted a terrace, and he never gave her that. I guess that's how it is....always something to feel guilty about, but I don't think that lasted long.

I spoke to my financial planner yesterday. I would have to sign my house and my annuity (IRA?) over to Jessie 5 years before I end up in a nursing home. He asked if I have any health issues. I gratefully (Thank you God) told him that I don't; just preparing things. He said they do not think it is a good idea. I lose all power over my house, and that's just not good. My annuity would have to be sold, taxes paid, and then signed over to Jessie. I don't have enough in there to bother. He ssaid that if I were wealthy, he would recommend long term care insurance, but the premiums are quite high. His suggestion....forget about it and enjoy my life.

I guess I will revisit this once a year, and make a decision based on circumstances. I do want to leave something for Jessie. I can figure it out somehow.

I hope I don't end up in a nursing home anyway. I'd rather die in my sleep, or very quickly at least.

[DianaB]

That's interesting to find out, judy.

The price of nursing home care is quite a worry for all of us. I agree with dying quickly so there's not a lot of expenses at the end of life. I would hate for Glen to lose the farm and our home.

[Blueyes]

That's what I have been looking in to...long term insurance. It's cheaper the younger you are when you get it..of course you pay for it longer, in theory.

[gja1000]

Re: long term care insurance - if you are younger (and I don't know at what age) it is better to start some sort of savings account for long term care, rather than paying the long term care premiums because you have long enough to save the amount you would need for long term care, and if you DON'T need long term care when you get older, then your family can get that money when you die. But if you are older and can afford the premiums which are pretty pricey when you are older, then it is OK because you probably won't pay in as much as you would use if you needed long term care.

Does that make sense?

[lynne b]

Most of you know that my mom has been in a nursing home for almost 4 yrs now , started out in the health section where she was completely dependent on the staff for everything, after much improvement she moved to assisted living for almost 2 yrs and has recently moved back to the health side, she is having trouble with everyday needs and caring for herself.

Going back a few years….my brother bought the home that we were raised in, yes it had to be within 5yrs of mom going into the NH, and also at a price that was fair market value of what the house was worth. Thank goodness he still owns the house even though he lives in California, the house is mainly being used for storage right now, but it is nice to be able to go there when things start piling up on me.

Back to mom and the NH…..the house was paid for, so the price my brother paid for the house was essentially cash in the bank for mom, she also has my dads retirement from Delco/Delphi where he retired after 30+ yrs so it was a fair amount ( my dad passed in 2004) all was left to my mom. Mom should have been able to live a fairly comfortable life for several years, except after taking care of my dad till he passed, her health went down very quickly.

To answer some of the questions on the cost of living in a NH, it is so expensive, when mom first went in the NH it was nothing for me to write a check for close to 10K a month (I am my moms POA) depending on her health and what meds she needed that month, insurance covered some of her meds but not all and the rest and cost of NH was paid out of pocket and still is for now. When mom moved to AL the cost went down to around 4-6 thousand a month, again this is all out of pocket, by now the money from the house is gone, we are now spending dads retirement. Mom has recently moved back to the health side and the price has jumped back up to almost 7K a month, at this price it won’t be long and my mom will be penny less and will have to move again to the Medicare side which will break my heart to think that everything that my mom and dad worked all their lives for is gone to a NH. The health system sucks, my mom tried very hard to make sure us kids were not burdened with having to care for her needs when her time came, she paid for her funeral and hoped she would be able to leave us with a small inheritance.
Now by no means does mom live in the most expensive NH around here.

I hate that mom lives in a NH but I know she is getting the care that she needs, more than I could have given her. I miss my mom so much, even though I am still able to talk to her, touch her and see her I still miss her so much and I love her no matter what.

Also for long term insurance, I have this through where I work, have paid into it for many years now, it is my understanding that after I reach a certain age I will no longer be eligible for it and everything I have paid into it will just be gone. I guess I really need to look into it more. As you say Gayle, it probably is better to just put that money in a shoe box and save it for my kids. Thought i was doing the right thing by having it. I also have Aflac which i rarely use it either, but sure as heck if i didn't have either i would need it. Would love to have all the money that i have paid into ins premiums and have hardly used it.

Again the health care system sucks, and I agree that I would rather go quickly.

[judy]

Lynne,

I'm sorry your Mom has all of these health issues! NH care is so crazy! If you aren't very wealthy, you are so out of luck!

My aunt lives in a beautiful place, where you go from one phase to another, depending on your health. My uncle left her lots of money though. My stepmother also has this advantage.

I will have to just wing it. I am only hoping to leave something for my daughter and her family. That shoebox idea is not half bad!

[DianaB]

We had a friend that bought a condo in an assisted living facility. It was pricey but he only made one payment and it was to take care of him to the rest of his life. He had a small apartment with a kitchenette but there was a caffeteria to go and eat meals at. When he got too ill to live in the apartment he was put in a nursing home but their goal was to get him back to assisted living.

If you were to live a long time then it would be worth doing but if you only lived a short time then it would be a waste of money. It might be worth looking into if there are some in your area.

Glen and I went to Colorado and saw him and his apartment one time. It was a very nice place.

[gja1000]

We have a place like that here in Austin, but an efficiency apartment is about $300,000 and you have to pay monthly fees which are about $3500 per month. I'm sure there are less expensive places like that, but I don't know about them in this area. This really is a good deal if you can afford it because they have independent living, assisted living, nursing home and alzheimer's care and like you said, you only have to buy your apartment when you move in - but the monthly fees would get me. Also, when you die your family gets back 95% of what you paid for the apartment. They also have stand alone homes that you can purchase but they are about $1,000,000.

[lynne b]

when i talk about having to move mom it is in the same facility, just different sections of it.

[Janet]

Well it's a little late for Rick and I to save up for a nursing home. We'd have to sell all three homes most likely and not be able to leave Ricky anything. It sure got me to thinking though. I'm just glad if one of us needs nursing home care, it won't leave the one left with nothing.

Lynne I'm sorry your Mom isn't doing well. I hope that she will improve and be able to go back to assisted living, not sure that is possible. You're lucky to have your daughters to help you if they still are.