Homosexuals

[Janet]

This topic came to mind because of the "Oprah" thread. AND since we were writing about marriage and committment I have a question.

I don't know if there are any gays or lesbians on here and I want to say I do not want to offend anyone or start a debate, I just want the knowledge for myself. (My Bible doesn't have a way to look up verses like a dictionary, although my Mother has one that has words, topics or circumstances in the back that will lead you to the verses.)

So here it is....I have a brother-in-law who is gay. He has got to be one of the cleanest (mind and body), caring, compassionate, people I have every met. He is very active in his church (has a title, but can't remember what it is). Will he not make it into Heaven? I don't know how true this is, but I've always heard...they can't help the way they feel...they were born that way. I don't think anyone would actually WANT to be gay with all the bashing and not being able to do some things legally... so Marilyn, Rebecca, Lissa and anyone else....what do you think? Will the gates be closed to him? My Sunday School teacher says it's wrong and there is no two ways about it. He will not make it to the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Tink]

Janet, one of my best friends since jr high was a gay man. He was in a committed relationship for well over 20 yrs with another man. He helped raise the other mans 3 children and considered that one of his proudest accomplishments. He passed away over a yr ago.

I had some long discussions with my friend about this very topic. He too was a very decent, loving person who had a deep religious faith. I've decided that us mortals have no way of knowing who will or will not go to heaven. It's not up to us to judge or know. Since God has granted us total forgiveness just for the asking, I think heaven is obtainable by any who seek it.

I agree with you that people don't "choose" to be homosexual. It's how they are... born or developing. God loves them as much as He loves all of His children.

[Marilyn]

Let's let the scriptures speak:

Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."

Romans 1:26-27 "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. "

You may want to read Romans 1:16 - the end of the chapter to get the full meaning. In vs 26, he states "exchanged the natural use for what is against nature." If God intended for people to be homosexuals, created them that way, why does He say this is "against nature"?

I believe that there are a lot of environmental factors that contribute to people practicing homosexuality & I don't pretend or be so arrogant to propose that I have all the answers, but where the Bible speaks so plainly, there cannot be much effectual debate about God's stand on the subject.

John 3:16 does state, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." This is, however, not a blank statement that as long as we believe, we are saved. God expects more of us than that.

James 2:14 & 17, "14. What does it profit, my bretheren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?....17. Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Check out Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

We may also believe and not be willing to submit, Hebrews 10:26 & 27, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."

God loves us and gives us the opportunity to repent and be restored to Him. Someone who strays can be brought back James 5:19-20, "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."

We all do sin and fall short of the glory of God. No one sin is really worse than another, as far as our salvation is concerned. We just need to make sure we are doing our very best to do God's Will and trust in His grace to cover the rest. I could go on, with other scriptures, God's Word is my favorite subject, but I've written so much here, I don't know if anyone will actually read it all as it is & they may not get the full meaning of what I'm trying to say.

[Marilyn]

I was composing the above while Tink was posting, so did not read her's first.

God does love us all, and He will be the one to judge. He wants us all to be with him in Heaven.

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

God will reward us if we do our best. Hebrews 11:6, "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

God loves all of us. No matter what we have done. However, we must strive to do His will, repent of our wrongs and be as pleasing to Him as possible. No matter how good we are, we can't make it without His forgiveness and grace. We need to be in a position to be certain of our salvation, and that position is attainable.

[RLC12345678]

I agree that God does not approve of homosexuality. But God also view all sins the same. Being gay is no worse than me drinking or cussing or talking about someone behind their back or lusting over a hot man. God looks down on all of these sins. But that is why he sent Jesus to the Earth...to save us all from our sins. Everything you posted, Marilyn, confirms that God does not approve of homosexuality. But I believe that God hates homosexuality, no the homosexual himself. In John 3:16 it says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son and those who believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." I interpret this to mean that even though we sin, if we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, then we will go to Heaven. This includes gays, lesbians, homosexuals, ect. This is the way I interpret God's Word, but ultimately, only God knows who will make it into Heaven. Therefore, we should live the best life we can since only God knows for sure who will make it in. :)

[rivermom]

And from the posts it looks as though Janet has received her answer. Amen

[Marilyn]

I agree that God does not approve of homosexuality. But God also view all sins the same. Being gay is no worse than me drinking or cussing or talking about someone behind their back or lusting over a hot man. God looks down on all of these sins. But that is why he sent Jesus to the Earth...to save us all from our sins. Everything you posted, Marilyn, confirms that God does not approve of homosexuality. But I believe that God hates homosexuality, no the homosexual himself. In John 3:16 it says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son and those who believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." I interpret this to mean that even though we sin, if we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, then we will go to Heaven. This includes gays, lesbians, homosexuals, ect. This is the way I interpret God's Word, but ultimately, only God knows who will make it into Heaven. Therefore, we should live the best life we can since only God knows for sure who will make it in. :)

God does consider sexual immorality on a different level from other sin.

1 Corinthians 6:17-19, "But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?"

If a person has accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior then he is joined with the Lord and is one spirit with Him. That person's body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and should be treated as such.

We are the children of a loving and forgiving God, but he calls us to repentance. Once we are His, we need to turn away from practices such as homosexuality. I won't quote all of Romans 6, but if you would like to read that chapter, I think you will see that we are not to knowingly continue to blatently sin.

This said, we all will fall short. God knows this. If you look at mankind throughout the Bible, we continue to do wrong no matter how many chances he gives us. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice and he bore our sins on the cross. We have an obligation to turn away from practices that we know are sin. We should not continue in sin so that grace may abound.

I truly believe part of what is wrong with our society is the attitude that we are all okay. We are not all okay. Just because we call upon the Lord and believe in Jesus, that does not mean we are okay. He expects obedience.

Matthew 5:19-21, "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Please understand that the things that I've written concerning sin and repentance may see harsh, but I do not mean them to be. We need to take our Christianity very seriously. We are admonished to study or be diligent to show ourselve approved unto the Lord. 2 Tmothy 2:15. We have been entrusted with the gospel and we are to speak as pleases God, not men. 1 Thessolonians 2:4.

I'll end with 2 Timothy 2: 24-26, "And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."

May you find the peace that surpasses all understanding and please realize that I am writing this because I care. I'm not trying to argue, but trying in my own feeble way to state the truth in love.

[Marilyn]

And from the posts it looks as though Janet has received her answer. Amen

LOL. I think you are right!!

[Janet]

Wow! I've read every word and have wrote down all the scriptures so that I can read them entirely. Thank you so much....now I understand. It had me at a loss because like I said my brother-in-law is such a caring and devoted man who follows God's words completely....except for this, I guess.

I've got a lot to read and think about, so thank you all very much....I appreciate it more than I can say.

[Marilyn]

If a person has accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior then he is joined with the Lord and is one spirit with Him. That person's body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and should be treated as such.

I meant to say here, "If a person has accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior and been obedient to the gospel of Christ, then he is joined with the Lord and is one spirit with Him."

But that is another topic.

[Janet]

I've been thinking again....so here goes....

IF someone is born homosexual, like say a mentally handicapped person, etc. It's not their fault. Are they to go through life without a loving partner? I mean I understand the scriptures you all have given me, but it makes me sad to think that, let's say my brother-in-law for instance...he knows he has been gay since a very young boy. He can't help that he doesn't have the same feelings or attraction for a woman that he has for a man....if he follows the scriptures....he will never know life with a loving partner. Why is he destined to live a lonely life? Would it be better for him to marry a woman that he "loves", but not in the way a marriage should be? It seems so unfair to him, like it would be to expect a mentally handicapped person to do God's will, not only have faith.

[Marilyn]

I've been thinking again....so here goes....

IF someone is born homosexual, like say a mentally handicapped person, etc. It's not their fault. Are they to go through life without a loving partner? I mean I understand the scriptures you all have given me, but it makes me sad to think that, let's say my brother-in-law for instance...he knows he has been gay since a very young boy. He can't help that he doesn't have the same feelings or attraction for a woman that he has for a man....if he follows the scriptures....he will never know life with a loving partner. Why is he destined to live a lonely life? Would it be better for him to marry a woman that he "loves", but not in the way a marriage should be? It seems so unfair to him, like it would be to expect a mentally handicapped person to do God's will, not only have faith.

If a person is born mentally handicapped, we do our best to teach them at whatever level is appropriate. They are in God's hands as we all are. It is reasonable to conclude that we have to be accountable, mentally responsible for our sins to be a sinner. Christ said in Matthew 19:14, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven." The mentally handicapped, depending on the degree of their condition are often like children.

With regard to people being born homosexual. God says that it, homosexuality, is "against nature" Rom. 1:26. If it's not natural, it's not of God since He is in control and we are all His natural creation. Something besides God caused this. How does a young boy know he is gay? I am definitely heterosexual, but did not desire men when I was a young girl.

We treat men who have feminine qualities like they are not really men. Then what are they? Oh they must be gay. We ask them "Are you gay??", or "Little Johnny is kinda affeminite, maybe he is gay." We need to be very careful the ideas we plant in little growing minds that may one day grow into something that it shouldn't. Boys and girls who are unsure of their sexuality see homosexuals on TV and think oh, maybe I'm one of those. It has become popular at our local high school for girls to be lesbians. Girls are experimenting with being lesbians, because it's the cool thing to do. They weren't born that way. We need to wake up!!

[Tink]

Janet, the church generally says that homosexuality is only a sin if it's acted upon. So the expectation is that a homosexual is to never have sex in order to be considered to be living a Christian life. They can't help who/what they are, but they are to deny that part of themselves.

It was in trying to be "normal" that my friends partner ended up in a marriage and fathering 3 children. He was one of the lucky ones in that his ex wife and kids found it possible to accept and continue to include him in their lives even after he "came out". He ended up divorced, and loved his kids, who he did end up raising, yet his trying to deny his sexual orientation caused a lot of grief and pain for them all.

How that can be better in the eyes of God is beyond me.

[Janet]

Janet, the church generally says that homosexuality is only a sin if it's acted upon. So the expectation is that a homosexual is to never have sex in order to be considered to be living a Christian life. They can't help who/what they are, but they are to deny that part of themselves.

It was in trying to be "normal" that my friends partner ended up in a marriage and fathering 3 children. He was one of the lucky ones in that his ex wife and kids found it possible to accept and continue to include him in their lives even after he "came out". He ended up divorced, and loved his kids, who he did end up raising, yet his trying to deny his sexual orientation caused a lot of grief and pain for them all.

How that can be better in the eyes of God is beyond me.


I know we're not to question....but that's how I feel too!

[red98vett]

I'm along the lines of to each his own. I grew up with 2 best friends that are gay - and have 2 gay cousins - my sons dad worked in a gay bar (I LOVED hanging out there)

I find nothing wrong with it - If someone is attracted to the same sex -- they're attracted ...who are we to decide what's right and wrong ? it's not like the human race will end over it.

[Janet]

Thanks everyone for everything posted. Until recently...maybe it's because I'm getting a little older (not much older....lol) I wanted to know more about this subject. I always wanted to know, but didn't at the same time...does that make sense?

I was afraid if I checked, I would basically be told not to associate with my BIL and that was something I wasn't willing to do and still not. He is a great person and I couldn't ask for a better brother-in-law.

[Marilyn]

I was afraid if I checked, I would basically be told not to associate with my BIL and that was something I wasn't willing to do and still not. He is a great person and I couldn't ask for a better brother-in-law.

Janet, just a quick note to let you know that, while some may think you should disassociate from him, if there is nothing about yout BIL's behavior around you and your family that adversely affects you or them, there, in my opinion, is no reason not to associate with him. We all sin, as someone else said on here. God may hate the sin, but He loves the sinner. Personnally, I would make it clear to my son that even though we love Uncle _____, we know his way of life is not right, but we love him and are there for him and him for us. I had an uncle with some problems, he was not gay, but had other spiritual problems, and we still loved him, and he was still one of my favorite uncles.

If we don't have love, we are nothing. Wishing you the best!!

[Janet]

That makes me feel soooo much better. What would this site do without you Marilyn??? I'll tell you one thing....I hope I never, ever have to find out!!! :smile2:

[Marilyn]

That makes me feel soooo much better. What would this site do without you Marilyn??? I'll tell you one thing....I hope I never, ever have to find out!!! :smile2:

Awww, thank you Janet. I feel the same way about you!!!! :)

[DCollins]

I am new to this site but not to most of you. I have a Lesbian couple who live next door to me and have many associations with others. I am a christian and I believe every word in the Bible as Gods word. But the one thing I seem to remind myself often is that we are not to judge, lest we be judged. I pray for these friends because I am concerned with their souls. My grandfather was an ornery, ole guy who I loved dearly. He lived loud and hard and did not attend church or accept christ as his Savior. He died of a massive heart attack and the only solice I have is that in his last moments or seconds he asked for forgiveness and I will see him in Heaven one day. Almost everyone has that last moment to decide where they will spend eternity. It is up to us to explain to them that the choice is there. As for me I would much rather serve the Lord daily and have no doubts. But salvation is a struggle for many people. Marilyn it is wonderful to know that you know your Bible so well. I will definately keep you in mind with any questions I need help with.

[DianaB]

Wow!!! I leave for the weekend and, man, you decide to discuss a HOT topic!!! Sorry I wasn't here with my two cents, but I think that Marilyn did a good job of covering what the Bible has to say about it and I agree with what she had to say.

[Marilyn]

I'm sorry, but there is just one more thing that I just cannot let go by without comment on this thread. Probably the best known passage in the entire Bible is Matthew 7:1, "Judge not, that ye be not judged."

And yet we are told in James 5:19-20, "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."

And in Galatians 6:1-2, "Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Bear one another?s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."

How can we fulfill these scriptures if we do not do a little bit of judging. We must maintain an attitude of meekness and truth. A lot of it has to do with our attitude. Everything that we do should be done out of love, not spite or hatred.

PS, I'm not trying to show off my "great biblical knowledge". I have a lot to learn!!! I have been studying since childhood under some very good teachers, and teach myself. You learn so much more when you teach something. I don't pretend to be perfect. I'm a work in progress, but I try to know God's Word and would feel as though I had done wrong if I know the truth and do not share it. We should not hide the truth out of fear that someone may not approve.

[Marilyn]

Wow!!! I leave for the weekend and, man, you decide to discuss a HOT topic!!! Sorry I wasn't here with my two cents, but I think that Marilyn did a good job of covering what the Bible has to say about it and I agree with what she had to say.

Thank you, Diana. I can tell from some of your previous posts that you share a love of God's Word. I was wondering where you were while this was going on. Have a wonderful week!!