2.5 weeks to go

[Tink]

Canada is supposed to be "due" on April 16, so she's in her 3rd tri. I'm betting she doesn't make it that long. She had her last litter 5 days early, so wouldn't surprise me if she does that again. I just had to share these pics...
She's now become a full time house dog as I plan to have this litter indoors where I can really enjoy them regardless of the weather.
2808 2809 2810

[DianaB]

Poor Canada. She looks like she's going to have quite a few puppies!! The expression on her face reminds me of all pregnant women in their last month......ready to get it over with!!! Give her a hug and an extra treat for me!!! (I can't wait to see pictures of the puppies!!)

[Tink]

I'm so excited! I've gotten 3 more people on my puppy list in the past 24 hrs!
What surprises me is that I haven't seen anyone else advertise a list... yet mine's up to 23 people due to my ads about it. Should be interesting to see how long it takes before someone else follows suit. LOL Too bad I can't patent the idea. LOL

[Janet]

She looks so good Tink!! Tired, big, but good..lol I can't wait to see how many and what sexes she has...this is just as exciting as waiting on mine to be born.

[katcarasella]

By the looks of that 3rd pic, she should cut down on the Chips she was eating in the 2nd pic. JMO

[Tink]

Kat, of course it's impossible to know yet, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if she's carrying up to 13 pups again. The poor girl just waddles and while she still tries to jump, it's only about half as high as usual. LOL She's so happy now that she's been brought into the house full time that I don't think she cares about anything else. I'll try to gt another picture of her closer to her due date... if she's anything like last time (which right now she looks like she will be) it's quite a sight to see. She gets so round and wide you'd think her skin would burst.

Considering the pups each weigh about 1.5 lbs at birth, she is likely carrying an extra 20 lbs just with them... then add in the fluid etc...

[katcarasella]

Poor little lady, I feel for her, been there done that. LOL

[Forgivenmom5]

The lady that's on TV for having sextuplets don't have a thing on Canada!

[catlover]

How old is she, and how many times have you bred her?

[Marilyn]

Considering the pups each weigh about 1.5 lbs at birth, she is likely carrying an extra 20 lbs just with them... then add in the fluid etc...
'
That's pretty amazing if you think about it. We typically carry 7 to 8 lbs of baby and probably that much more in fluid and she carries 20 lbs of baby, WOW!!! And people question our belief in God

[Tink]

Catlover, this is Canada's second and final litter with me. She's 5, so it's getting time to retire her. She had had 2 litters before I got her. She's a wonderful mom and has large healthy litters.

Her last litter was 13 pups, so I expect similar this time. My vet says as long as she's producing healthy litters that are that large, she's obviously not suffering any ill effects. 'Course she gets good quality food, beef liver, eggs and multi vitamins to help keep her built up. When she's nursing a large litter, she also gets puppy formula on her food each day.

Marilyn, what's even more remarkable is that when she's not pg, she weighs 82 lbs... so she increases her body weight by 25%! There's a good reason I have her inside being pampered. LOL

[AngieDoogles]

Catlover, this is Canada's second and final litter with me. She's 5, so it's getting time to retire her. She had had 2 litters before I got her. She's a wonderful mom and has large healthy litters.

Her last litter was 13 pups, so I expect similar this time. My vet says as long as she's producing healthy litters that are that large, she's obviously not suffering any ill effects. 'Course she gets good quality food, beef liver, eggs and multi vitamins to help keep her built up. When she's nursing a large litter, she also gets puppy formula on her food each day.

You always take such good care of your puppies and their parents Tink. The families who get one of your puppies are definitely lucky, that's for sure!

[Janet]

I was just thinking the same thing Angie. You are a wonderful breeder Tink. Anyone would be lucky to own one of your babies.

[Tink]

Thanks Ladies.
I do try to treat them well. It's only fair considering all they give to me.

[catlover]

Tink, is she a purebred lab? Has she been OFA tested? The reason I ask is, labs are so overbred and poorly bred, and dysplasia has, unfortunately, become very common in the breed. With lots of research and careful breeding, dysplasia can actually be almost eliminated. This was done in a study that was done on service dogs. I happened to read the article in a veterinary journal, and it's amazing what they were able to do. But without OFA testing on both the sire AND the dam (or PennHip) it's impossible to know if a dog has dyplastic tendencies.

Sorry if she's not a lab and I'm jumping to conclusions. I just think it's a topic that everybody should be educated on. It's not just a matter of throwing a male and a female together, as I'm sure you know.

[protodog]

It is my understanding that hip displaysia is a difficult problem to tackle because it is polygenetic, and it is about 30 percent environmental. (Fat puppies are more likely to have trouble than those who are kept lean.) So, trying to keep lines displaysia-free is more complicated than dealing with, for instance, the MDR1 gene. However, OFA or PennHip are highly useful in a breeding program because they can let a breeder know a problem exists even if the dog is not showing symptoms of the problem, and then the breeder knows to elimate the dog from the breeding program before it can pass on its poor structure to puppies.

I haven't spent a great deal of time researching hip displaysia because it is very rare in my breed, borzoi. Unfortunately, two of the biggest problems in borzoi are bloat and bone cancer, two things for which there is no test.

I'm always interested in learning new things, so I'm curious as to what the other dog people here have read about hip displaysia.

[Tink]

Dysplacia is also prevalent in Rotties and German Shepherds which I used to breed, so unfortunately it's nothing new to me. Although not as common in Standard poodles, there is some HD seen in some of them as well.

Yes Catlover, Canada is a reg Lab. And I breed her with a standard poodle.

As protodog pointed out, you can have 2 parents with excellent ratings on OFA that will have pups with HD. The problem can come from the dog being overweight, being allowed to do too much running, jumping and climbing at too young an age, or from an injury to the hips like being hit by a car or kicked by a horse. For anyone who's owned a lab, you know that it's very hard to keep a lab from running, jumping and climbing. They're very energetic and love to be on the go.

As for the reliability of the testing, it's only as good as the vet that does the tests and the technician who reads them. I know of people who have sent in the exact same films under a few different names just to see if they'd get the same rating each time and they did not. Considering the test costs $360, that's pretty disheartening!

I personally prefer to put my money into DNA testing. With DNA testing you not only have proof positive which dog is yours if you should ever need to prove it, but it tests for the following genetic diseases as well.

Dog Diseases

* Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)
* Hypothyroidism with Goiter (HTG)
(Congenital Hypothyroidism)
* Cystinuria (CYST)
* Globoid Cell Leucodystrophy (GCL)
* Neuronal Ceroid Lipofuscinosis (NCL)
* Phosphofructosokinase Deficiency (PFK)
* Von Willebrand Disease (vWD)
* Narcolepsy (NARC)
* Cone degeneration (CD)
* Canine Leucocyte Adhesion Deficiency (CLAD)
* Hemophilia B (HmB)
* Muscular Dystrophy (MD)
* Myotonia Congenita (MC)
* GMI Gangliosidosis (GMIG)
* Retinal Dystrophy (prad)
* SCID (DNA-PKc & DNA PKc2)
* Mucopolysaccharidosis Type VII (GUSB_NOSVVIII)
* Thrombasthenic Thrombopathia (THROM)
* Progressive Rod-Cone Degeneration (PRCD)


I know HD gets a lot of press, and it is something you do not want to be breeding a weakness for. However, the testing is not yet reliable and in my mind HD is something at least the dog can still live with... many of these other issues they can't.

I do have a 2 yr written guarantee on all of my pups for HD for the protection of my buyers. I have not tested Canada because she is out of tested parents, is 5 yrs old, and the way she jumps and runs I have no concerns about the health of her hips. I got her about a yr ago and plan to spay her when her next litter is weaned.

My other dogs aren't yet old enough to test. They have to be 2 yrs old for OFA. My stud will be 2 in June... my other Lab female just turned 2 and was bred because someone who was visiting thought they were doing me a favor and put the stud in her pen when she was in heat... They had no idea she was in heat and had let him out of the house accidentally.
My labradoodle female is only 7 months old and my other poodle boy is 8 months old.

[pearl]

i'm a dog (specifically lab) person (i don't breed) but did a lot of research when choosing my lab. i am well educated in dog issues.
hip dysplasia IS common in standard poodles. along with many other genetic diseases so it's good you do genetic testing, tink.
it is hereditary and can be worsened by a lot of physical activity. it is also believed by experts to be a lot environment. but with puppies, why take a risk.
you have to look back generations to gauge risk, not just the parents. Dogs rated as good to excellent can be carriers and produce pups with dysplasia.
and, running, swimming and exercise develop the hip muscles which help stave off development of hip dysplasia for a time. it's doing it excessively, such as roading~frisbee catching~ and excessive running and the like that can worsen it when it is present.
Xrays can be accurate and can be read accurately at the proper age. there is room for error. Xrays need to be done by a vet with experience so those breeding must find that vet. if more than one reading is done, i'd say take the worst reading. but it's the puppies' health at stake so i think breeders need to try. my lab is 8 years, so Penn Hip was not as widely used so i don't know as much about that.

my lab breeder gave a Lifetime guarantee against hip dysplasia; age 2 is the earliest they can be tested, and symptoms likely wouldn't show up till older, and many pet owners aren't going to Xray or Penn hip...so i'd say Tink consider a longer guarantee?

anyway, i'm about education when i see a chance. Tink, i really would add xrays or Penn Hip to your breeding program seeing the breeds you use. and as i said, the gentic testing is right on. good luck with the pups.

[pearl]

and in my mind HD is something at least the dog can still live with... many of these other issues they can't.

forgot to add, actually they can be quite disabled and in a lot of pain from dysplasia, and hip replacement surgery to take care of it costs thousands of $$. so...it's a real debility to live with.

[catlover]

Pearl, I agree with you 100%. It CAN be crippling. I know this personally, because one of my co-workers has a poorly bred lab. She has spent TONS of money dealing with it. Her poor boy was so bad, he had to have surgery on both hips by the time he was 2 years old. Yes, it's unusual for it to be that bad at that young an age, but it shows what can happen.

Yes, it's true that a dog can have excellent rated hips and still give birth to a dysplatic pup. But why take the chance? I think it's pretty rare for this to happen. It can also happen that a dog rated poor can have a pup with good hips. Again, why take the chance?

I own brittanys. They are a sporting breed, but smaller than a lab. As such, they are prone to dysplasia, although it is not as common. When I bought each of my pups, I also researched a ton, and one of the things I was very careful to look for was a breeder who both showed AND did OFA testing. Both of my pups come from a champion blood line, the dogs are shown in AKC and also field trials and hunt trials. I have a pedigree several generations back. Does this guarantee they will have no health problems? Of course not. But it DOES give me peace of mind, knowing that each breeder did everything possible to protect the health of both the parents AND the puppies.

[Tink]

Breeding hybrids puts me in a unique position. I have people telling me that my dogs are just mutts and totally worthless and I have people telling me that I am obligated to offer a lifetime guarantee on their health. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree and get on with it.

Thank goodness the 23 people on my puppy waiting list seem to feel confident that I do the best I can for my dogs.

[Janet]

I think it's great that we can talk about anything on this 4women forum, even our dogs or other pets. BUT I personally think it would be more appropriate to discuss genetics..etc. on a DOG forum for that specific breed.

[DianaB]

I think it's great that we can talk about anything on this 4women forum, even our dogs or other pets. BUT I personally think it would be more appropriate to discuss genetics..etc. on a DOG forum for that specific breed.

I agree!!!!

[katcarasella]

I think it's great that we can talk about anything on this 4women forum, even our dogs or other pets. BUT I personally think it would be more appropriate to discuss genetics..etc. on a DOG forum for that specific breed.


I Agree Also!!!

[catlover]

Maybe this isn't so much a discussion of "genetics" as it is trying to educate people on what to look for when researching buying a puppy. If people don't know what to ask, how are they to find out? What is wrong with talking about problems people have had when buying pups and NOT doing research? What is wrong with talking about potential things that can go wrong? Ideally, buying a puppy is more than just looking in the newspaper and calling the first ad you see for the breed you want. Problems don't just go away by pretending there isn't a problem.

I didn't see anyone slamming Tink for what she is doing. Personally, I was just asking questions. If you don't ask-you don't learn.

[Dobie]

I think the thing that bothers me about some mixed breed dog breeders (I'm not directing this at you Tink, more the puppy mills out there) is that the breeders represent these dogs as purebred animals to the uneducated buyer.

I can't tell you the number of people I have run into who say they have a "Purebred" puggle or maltipoo.

Best of luck with the puppies, hope all goes well with the delivery. You said she's an experienced mother, so I'm sure everything will be fine.

[Gwen]

I was going to stay out this one as I know nothing about breeding and genetics.

But I do have to say that I find it concerning that someone made a thread about their dog, and members talked freely about it, along with breeding practices and other issues pertaining to pet ownership.....But when people started asking questions that could be construed as debatable, it was suggested that maybe those comments should be talked about on a dog forum.

To a new member like myself, that comes across very confusing because the original thread was about dogs and breeding, so it's assumed that any responses pertaining to that subject would be allowed?

I am a member of several forums where people disagree all the time, but it never causes discourse or hurt feelings because the members are very mature about it. I think the same could be said for this thread. I don't think it should be censored just because there is a difference of opinions. Questioning things is the best way to learn, I think. As long as both parties are respectful of others, I don't see any harm in debatable threads.

But good luck with your puppies Tink! I've only ever seen one labradoodle before at a petshop, and she was a really friendly dog, loved my kids :)

[pearl]

i agree wholeheartedly, gwen.
breeders as well as buyers can have things they need to learn. for the sake of the puppies people need to be open to information.
breeding and buying some types has become a fad. the more it is talked about the more people on both ends will be educated.

[Janet]

Maybe this isn't so much a discussion of "genetics" as it is trying to educate people on what to look for when researching buying a puppy. If people don't know what to ask, how are they to find out? What is wrong with talking about problems people have had when buying pups and NOT doing research? What is wrong with talking about potential things that can go wrong? Ideally, buying a puppy is more than just looking in the newspaper and calling the first ad you see for the breed you want. Problems don't just go away by pretending there isn't a problem.

I didn't see anyone slamming Tink for what she is doing. Personally, I was just asking questions. If you don't ask-you don't learn.

Up until the 14th post...the discussion was a celebration of sorts about the birth of Canada's litter. Then it became questions on breeding practices...full blooded..etc.

I'm not speaking for anyone else but myself, but I personally thought that if anyone wanted more information on this, a dog forum would be a better place to get it.

There are so many dog forums out there and that's where those type of discussions belong. That is why so many of us come here (that belong to other dog forums) so we do not have to deal with being interrogated and opinions being shoved in our directions when opinions were not asked for in the first place.

I sincerely hope this post doesn't sound like I'm pointing fingers or anything like that, definitely not my intent. We've just all silently agreed not to judge or condem anyone for their beliefs on any topic. We're all individuals and no one will agree on everything. We've even wrote about politics here, but not once did anyone's feeling get hurt or feel they were being judged by who they were wanting to vote for. We'd just like to keep it that way.:)

[Gwen]

But for us new members, we were not aware of this way of posting ya'll have. I don't speak for everyone, but I think if we would have known that, no one would have said anything. Breeding and genetics do go hand in hand, and the thread was about breeding, so I can understand how someone could innocently bring up something pertaining to it.

I guess I just see it as a double standard. Like for example, say someone started a thread that said, "I'm voting for Obama, he's the best person in the world and I think he would make a good president" and numerous responses after it agreed with the OP. But then someone said, "I'm sorry, I don't agree. McCain is the best, and he should be the president". And all of a sudden, the person whose views were different from everyone else's was told that they needed to take their views to a political forum, as it was not appropriate for the forum it was on. Isn't that a form of censoring someone's opinion? I can certainly understand if a remark was rude or offensive, but if someone merely states their opinion, I guess I just don't see why their comment carries less weight then everyone else's.

Sorry for stepping on any toes. Just trying to understand how everything works...

[pope1982]

:notworthy: I agree Gwen, well said. :goodpost:

I find it difficult talking about a lot of things, or even getting a warm fuzzy feeling from many of the older members of the board. I see a lot of hand slapping, and this shouldn't be posted here....It is not very inviting. I realize you ladies were all friends before we came here, but realize how you may be coming across to someone outside the group. It feels a little like ganging up. :scratchhead:

(again, not trying to point fingers here) but a woman posted a picture of her adorable son in the general section, and not a word was said about it being in the wrong section. Personally, sometimes I don't check out all the different areas and I could care less if something ends up in the wrong spot from time to time.

I think this conversation is interesting, perfectly normal, respectful and healthy. If it goes beyond that, by all means. Lock it.

[pope1982]

"not once did anyone's feeling get hurt or feel they were being judged by who they were wanting to vote for. We'd just like to keep it that way.:)"

Friends are allowed to disagree and even have hurt feelings. We all have our days... Communication and forgiveness is key if it is a TRUE relationship worth anything. My friends and I are always honest with one another.
It is hard to understand feelings and tones through typed words...

I will not censor myself for fear of hurting any and every one's feelings. I like to think I am a nice person, and if someone has a problem with something I said, I'd definitely like to know.
We are adults, have dealt with much more in life than some typed words, differences in opinion or questions. It can all be dealt with on the board, or in private ;)

[Tink]

OK since we've been invited to lay our cards on the table, I will.

This site up till recently has been very small, laid back and so peaceful we didn't need a moderator. We're all conservative, most are older, we're extremely respectful of each other, and have formed very tight friendships between us all.
We don't necessarily agree on everything, but we make sure that if we don't, we agree to disagree.

Enter all the newbies.
We tried to welcome you all and hoped that having so many new people at one time wouldn't make us all unwelcome in our own territory. We realize we're different from your usual site, and quite frankly, that's the way we prefer it to stay.

Within days we have had our religion ridiculed, have been told we need to be "educated" that we're rude, unwelcoming and need to change. Sorry folks, but this is OUR community and if you don't like it, then maybe you need to look elsewhere. There are plenty of sites where you can land that won't think anything of the things that have offended us. I fail to see why we should have to change what we have built for ourselves and maintained for 2 yrs just so that people who don't believe as we do or want to interact as we do can settle in.

How would you react if a group of rowdy teens moved into your front yard and told you how to run your household and that you'd just have to adjust? That pretty well explains how this feels for me.

I have nothing against any or all of your staying if you truly want to be part of a community like ours. However I do feel strongly that if you expect us to change to accommodate you, then you've come to the wrong place.

[Dobie]

I agree it's your community - newbies should play by your rules.

However, I have not ridiculed anyone's religion, called anyone uneducated, or rude. Yet when I said that I felt an undercurrent of something going on that was unpleasent (by both older members and newcomers) and I thought it might be better for people to be direct with their feelings, I was told that I think I'm perfect. I probably could have worded it better, but it wasn't meant to be offensive.

Also, I tried to reach out with a thread of my own - talking about something deeply personal to me. For the most part everyone ignore me and I was basically told (although nicely) that nobody was interested in my drama and that I should go to a different site.

I personally liked this site because I thought it offered a group of women who came at life with a slightly different viewpoint from my own and reading how different people think helps me to grow as a person.

[Tink]

Dobie, the reason I referred you to the other site is that I am also a member there, and I worked there for 6 yrs so I KNOW the quality of help they would offer you. It was not intended to get rid of you... and I'm sorry if you saw it that way. The TTC part of that site is extremely active, and I know several who have great stories to tell of how successful they were. TLT is a good person there to talk with. She now has 2 daughters and has been on that site since long before they were conceived.

I was the moderator/coordinator of that area, so I know it well. Here that I know of, no one has experienced what you are. Janet adopted, but most of the rest of us either have grown kids and grandbabies by now or like with Angie and Lindsey, haven't started a family yet.

I would love to have you stay with us. Please don't leave because of me.

[AngieDoogles]

I agree it's your community - newbies should play by your rules.

However, I have not ridiculed anyone's religion, called anyone uneducated, or rude. Yet when I said that I felt an undercurrent of something going on that was unpleasent (by both older members and newcomers) and I thought it might be better for people to be direct with their feelings, I was told that I think I'm perfect. I probably could have worded it better, but it wasn't meant to be offensive.

Also, I tried to reach out with a thread of my own - talking about something deeply personal to me. For the most part everyone ignore me and I was basically told (although nicely) that nobody was interested in my drama and that I should go to a different site.

I personally liked this site because I thought it offered a group of women who came at life with a slightly different viewpoint from my own and reading how different people think helps me to grow as a person.

I have a lot I could have added to your thread. A WHOLE LOT. But right now, unfortunately, this forum is not a place where I feel comfortable sharing anything personal. (I'm not saying it's your fault, just the overall feel of the forum since new people have come and not even tried to fit in but instead made their own cliques and excluded the rest of us except when they want to debate or attack.) This is truly sad because this place has become so special to me and is really the only place I have to talk about issues such as the one your thread was about. The community and atmosphere here might not mean much to the new members, but we "senior members" have time and friendships that are invested in this site. We really do love and care for each other and respect individual opinions and beliefs.

For quite some time now many women from many places and many walks of life have never had a problem getting along here. We've discussed religion, books, politics, relationships, pets, sex and countless other topics and we've always been open and respectful to each other. No member was ever attacked or ridiculed in any way. That's the way we like it and maybe someday the new members will understand the value of the type of community we've built here.

[pope1982]

I do not try to speak for anyone besides myself, but I most certainly have tried to fit in. I have posted my honest responses to every ones threads and invited others to join in the ones I started.
I don't always have all the time in the world to hop on and view/respond to every post.

I feel a little like "whoa" when just told this was "YOUR" site... and if I didn't like it, to kick rocks when this is supposed to be a site worried about offending people? I am a "newbie" but that doesn't make me anything other than newer to this site. How in the world would new people (some of which you are not even sure will stick around, the same as with any site) have the ability to threaten your "territory"? Wouldn't you want to extend your community and friendships?

I don't think it should be considered any one's site.
And I don't think it should be so very difficult to get along, or get jumped on when we express ourselves. Although I must have missed a lot of the drama brought up in this thread, I still had very strange feelings.
Apparently all the unwanted vibes I was picking up on were warranted judging by what Tink had on her mind. :eek:

I've belonged to a few sites where this has happened. The senior members incorrectly and unfairly judged newbies, labeling them all pretty much the same with out taking into consideration they are all human individuals. It did take a few of the members stepping back, and distancing themselves a bit before they realized what they were doing.

We are not here to steal your site. And Angie, that makes me so sad to hear you say that because I have enjoyed learning the little bit that I have about you, your husband, your hobbies and where you live.

With that said, I have my own mind. I am not ganging up on anyone. I saw a discussion taking place, and I happened to be around today to share my two cents.

[Emmsmom]

I agree it's your community - newbies should play by your rules.

However, I have not ridiculed anyone's religion, called anyone uneducated, or rude. Yet when I said that I felt an undercurrent of something going on that was unpleasent (by both older members and newcomers) and I thought it might be better for people to be direct with their feelings, I was told that I think I'm perfect. I probably could have worded it better, but it wasn't meant to be offensive.

You are referring to what I said earlier. I was not directing that towards you. I was simply meant that I am not prefect and I often let my feelings slip out. It was just a saying.

[Gina]

Friends are allowed to disagree and even have hurt feelings. We all have our days... Communication and forgiveness is key if it is a TRUE relationship worth anything. My friends and I are always honest with one another.
It is hard to understand feelings and tones through typed words...

I will not censor myself for fear of hurting any and every one's feelings. I like to think I am a nice person, and if someone has a problem with something I said, I'd definitely like to know.
We are adults, have dealt with much more in life than some typed words, differences in opinion or questions. It can all be dealt with on the board, or in private ;)


You have hit the nail on the head, it is hard to understand feelings and tones through typed words. Hey I have not been around reading all the posts but whatever is being said seems like it is getting ugly. Everyone is entitled to their opinions yes but if you see that it is going to hurt someone's feeling back off no one needs to put people in their place. This community is about friendships and yes we all do not always agree on everything we all have our beliefs but We respect each other's feelings. Yes we are mature women, but with maturity comes the knowledge to know when to back off. I am not pointing fingers at anyone and everyone is welcomed here.

As one of the senior members who have been here since this community opened I find it sad to see the direction that this room is heading. Everyone should just put their ill feelings aside and begin anew once again all are welcomed. Let's move forward this is begining to get childish .

[pearl]

i was told my religious views are wrong by an old member.
so i think if members want to keep the conservative, religious, certain views it should be posted that other views are not welcome, to new members.
i did chime on posts to help people, talk about guitar, job interview by tink, etc...and there are a lot of viewpoints out there in the world.

people can get along.

[Tink]

I don't think it should be considered any one's site.

See Pope, that is one thing we won't agree on. We have been here as a group and have set our standards and have maintained a level of behavior that is hard to find online. I've been at many different sites, I've worked at 3... I really do know more than I care to about what else is "out there". So do the others, and this is WHY we've chosen to stay here. Not that we feel we're any better than others, but we are just not into the mainstream site behavior. Yes, it's true that people have the right to conduct themselves however they see fit, but it's also true that we have the same right to not participate in it if we choose not to. So this has become OUR site.

We welcome new members if they are interested in a community like ours, but we don't roll over and play dead while they run over us. I started here later than many of the senior members, and I stayed because I found them to be a warm and wonderful group to be friends with. But I joined with the intention of joining them... not "fixing' them.

The senior members incorrectly and unfairly judged newbies, labeling them all pretty much the same with out taking into consideration they are all human individuals. It did take a few of the members stepping back, and distancing themselves a bit before they realized what they were doing.

Here again it's OUR wrong doing according to you. :(
We didn't jump into your circle and start demanding anything of you. YOU all came here... We welcomed you and would like to be able to be friends, but we shouldn't have to feel we have to run and hide because someone new hasl arrived!

It's different when people come slowly and one or 2 at a time. When you come here already an obvious clique and start overpowering those who are already here, you should expect we're going to protest. It's hard to get to know anyone individually when you've arrived enmass. Given time I'm sure it will gt easier, but it seems each time there's a disagreement, more new people hop in to back up whoever is trying to "teach" us... so it's hard not to feel attacked.

[pearl]

But I joined with the intention of joining them... not "fixing' them.



i get a definite vibe that people here want to "fix" and exclude, and that's not something i enjoy, so i will vacate.

[Mac'sMom]

Well it is very clear now, I definitely don’t belong on this forum. I like to have fun, speak my mind, be opinionated, get to know people, learn about others opinions and views, I like to learn from others and have them learn from me…that is, after all, how we grow as people. This site is clearly not the place for that. There are some very closed minds on this site, but you all clearly enjoy it that way and enjoy each other, so I will also vacate.

[Gwen]

I joined this forum based on an email I got from a friend who had joined here and liked it. When more people started finding out about it as well, we actually all talked about being concerned about how ya'll would feel about so many people joining at once. We honestly didn't want to overwhelm ya'll. So honestly, we were all trying to keep your feelings in mind when we joined, we truly were.

I for one was really enjoying the atmosphere here and thought it would be a neat forum to be a part of. But then there was that religious thread. I think I said something to the effect of reincarnation and someone responded with "There is NO reincarnation" and put the 'no' in caps. Ya'll say this is such a mellow forum where no one judges, but that doesn't seem to be the case. If people don't judge people here, then why didn't that person put, "I personally don't believe in reincarnation, I believe....." Instead they worded it in a very direct, 'you're wrong' sort of way. I don't think that thread was meant to ridicule anyone's beliefs by any means. Just that, and I'm just speaking for myself here, I had noticed that God was mentioned a lot in many of the responses on this forum. So maybe the OP was just trying to get a feel of everyone's beliefs since religion was brought up so much? I don't think it was meant in a hurtful way.

And the same thing with this thread. It talked about breeding and whatnot, but when someone said something (that still pertained to the original subject matter) it all of a sudden wasn't okay. I could understand if a newbie started a pet thread and was told that those issues should be discussed elsewhere, but an older member started this thread. So us newbies assumed it was okay.

Or, as it was brought to my attention, someone brought up Harry Potter books in a general section or something. I guess another member didn't feel comfortable with a book being discussed outside the book area. But she had responded in someone else's thread about the book they were reading, and that thread wasn't in the book section either but she didn't seem to have a problem with that thread.

And I personally have tried to respond to other people's threads and not just the group of friends I already knew. But in all honesty, I noticed that a lot of the older members weren't responding to the threads of a lot of the new members either. So it goes both ways.

I can see how ya'll would think of this as your forum, as I have one that I feel that way as well. I get protective of the members because they are my dear friends. I can see how you wouldn't want to upset the balance ya'll have created. But if you alienate people along the way, it comes across as really exclusive. And if it were a private forum, that would really make sense. But since it's public, can you sort of see how it's easy for some of us to get confused when some things are allowed sometimes, and not others?

[Marilyn]

Apparently, I missed all the fuss. Hope things can settle down a bit and all who want to try to work on our site and our relationships will stay and try.

[NicoleMarcelle]

since this thread is supposed to be about Canada being Preggo... i started another thread where we can discuss everything else that is going on in the forum... have a wonderful day everyone!!!

http://www.4womentalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=54399#post54399