2.5 weeks to go

It is my understanding that hip displaysia is a difficult problem to tackle because it is polygenetic, and it is about 30 percent environmental. (Fat puppies are more likely to have trouble than those who are kept lean.) So, trying to keep lines displaysia-free is more complicated than dealing with, for instance, the MDR1 gene. However, OFA or PennHip are highly useful in a breeding program because they can let a breeder know a problem exists even if the dog is not showing symptoms of the problem, and then the breeder knows to elimate the dog from the breeding program before it can pass on its poor structure to puppies.

I haven't spent a great deal of time researching hip displaysia because it is very rare in my breed, borzoi. Unfortunately, two of the biggest problems in borzoi are bloat and bone cancer, two things for which there is no test.

I'm always interested in learning new things, so I'm curious as to what the other dog people here have read about hip displaysia.

[Tink]

Dysplacia is also prevalent in Rotties and German Shepherds which I used to breed, so unfortunately it's nothing new to me. Although not as common in Standard poodles, there is some HD seen in some of them as well.

Yes Catlover, Canada is a reg Lab. And I breed her with a standard poodle.

As protodog pointed out, you can have 2 parents with excellent ratings on OFA that will have pups with HD. The problem can come from the dog being overweight, being allowed to do too much running, jumping and climbing at too young an age, or from an injury to the hips like being hit by a car or kicked by a horse. For anyone who's owned a lab, you know that it's very hard to keep a lab from running, jumping and climbing. They're very energetic and love to be on the go.

As for the reliability of the testing, it's only as good as the vet that does the tests and the technician who reads them. I know of people who have sent in the exact same films under a few different names just to see if they'd get the same rating each time and they did not. Considering the test costs $360, that's pretty disheartening!

I personally prefer to put my money into DNA testing. With DNA testing you not only have proof positive which dog is yours if you should ever need to prove it, but it tests for the following genetic diseases as well.

Dog Diseases

* Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)
* Hypothyroidism with Goiter (HTG)
(Congenital Hypothyroidism)
* Cystinuria (CYST)
* Globoid Cell Leucodystrophy (GCL)
* Neuronal Ceroid Lipofuscinosis (NCL)
* Phosphofructosokinase Deficiency (PFK)
* Von Willebrand Disease (vWD)
* Narcolepsy (NARC)
* Cone degeneration (CD)
* Canine Leucocyte Adhesion Deficiency (CLAD)
* Hemophilia B (HmB)
* Muscular Dystrophy (MD)
* Myotonia Congenita (MC)
* GMI Gangliosidosis (GMIG)
* Retinal Dystrophy (prad)
* SCID (DNA-PKc & DNA PKc2)
* Mucopolysaccharidosis Type VII (GUSB_NOSVVIII)
* Thrombasthenic Thrombopathia (THROM)
* Progressive Rod-Cone Degeneration (PRCD)


I know HD gets a lot of press, and it is something you do not want to be breeding a weakness for. However, the testing is not yet reliable and in my mind HD is something at least the dog can still live with... many of these other issues they can't.

I do have a 2 yr written guarantee on all of my pups for HD for the protection of my buyers. I have not tested Canada because she is out of tested parents, is 5 yrs old, and the way she jumps and runs I have no concerns about the health of her hips. I got her about a yr ago and plan to spay her when her next litter is weaned.

My other dogs aren't yet old enough to test. They have to be 2 yrs old for OFA. My stud will be 2 in June... my other Lab female just turned 2 and was bred because someone who was visiting thought they were doing me a favor and put the stud in her pen when she was in heat... They had no idea she was in heat and had let him out of the house accidentally.
My labradoodle female is only 7 months old and my other poodle boy is 8 months old.

[pearl]

i'm a dog (specifically lab) person (i don't breed) but did a lot of research when choosing my lab. i am well educated in dog issues.
hip dysplasia IS common in standard poodles. along with many other genetic diseases so it's good you do genetic testing, tink.
it is hereditary and can be worsened by a lot of physical activity. it is also believed by experts to be a lot environment. but with puppies, why take a risk.
you have to look back generations to gauge risk, not just the parents. Dogs rated as good to excellent can be carriers and produce pups with dysplasia.
and, running, swimming and exercise develop the hip muscles which help stave off development of hip dysplasia for a time. it's doing it excessively, such as roading~frisbee catching~ and excessive running and the like that can worsen it when it is present.
Xrays can be accurate and can be read accurately at the proper age. there is room for error. Xrays need to be done by a vet with experience so those breeding must find that vet. if more than one reading is done, i'd say take the worst reading. but it's the puppies' health at stake so i think breeders need to try. my lab is 8 years, so Penn Hip was not as widely used so i don't know as much about that.

my lab breeder gave a Lifetime guarantee against hip dysplasia; age 2 is the earliest they can be tested, and symptoms likely wouldn't show up till older, and many pet owners aren't going to Xray or Penn hip...so i'd say Tink consider a longer guarantee?

anyway, i'm about education when i see a chance. Tink, i really would add xrays or Penn Hip to your breeding program seeing the breeds you use. and as i said, the gentic testing is right on. good luck with the pups.

[pearl]

Originally Posted by Tink

and in my mind HD is something at least the dog can still live with... many of these other issues they can't.

forgot to add, actually they can be quite disabled and in a lot of pain from dysplasia, and hip replacement surgery to take care of it costs thousands of $$. so...it's a real debility to live with.

Pearl, I agree with you 100%. It CAN be crippling. I know this personally, because one of my co-workers has a poorly bred lab. She has spent TONS of money dealing with it. Her poor boy was so bad, he had to have surgery on both hips by the time he was 2 years old. Yes, it's unusual for it to be that bad at that young an age, but it shows what can happen.

Yes, it's true that a dog can have excellent rated hips and still give birth to a dysplatic pup. But why take the chance? I think it's pretty rare for this to happen. It can also happen that a dog rated poor can have a pup with good hips. Again, why take the chance?

I own brittanys. They are a sporting breed, but smaller than a lab. As such, they are prone to dysplasia, although it is not as common. When I bought each of my pups, I also researched a ton, and one of the things I was very careful to look for was a breeder who both showed AND did OFA testing. Both of my pups come from a champion blood line, the dogs are shown in AKC and also field trials and hunt trials. I have a pedigree several generations back. Does this guarantee they will have no health problems? Of course not. But it DOES give me peace of mind, knowing that each breeder did everything possible to protect the health of both the parents AND the puppies.

[Tink]

Breeding hybrids puts me in a unique position. I have people telling me that my dogs are just mutts and totally worthless and I have people telling me that I am obligated to offer a lifetime guarantee on their health. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree and get on with it.

Thank goodness the 23 people on my puppy waiting list seem to feel confident that I do the best I can for my dogs.

[Janet]

I think it's great that we can talk about anything on this 4women forum, even our dogs or other pets. BUT I personally think it would be more appropriate to discuss genetics..etc. on a DOG forum for that specific breed.

[DianaB]

Originally Posted by Janet

I think it's great that we can talk about anything on this 4women forum, even our dogs or other pets. BUT I personally think it would be more appropriate to discuss genetics..etc. on a DOG forum for that specific breed.

I agree!!!!

[katcarasella]

Originally Posted by Janet

I think it's great that we can talk about anything on this 4women forum, even our dogs or other pets. BUT I personally think it would be more appropriate to discuss genetics..etc. on a DOG forum for that specific breed.

I Agree Also!!!

Maybe this isn't so much a discussion of "genetics" as it is trying to educate people on what to look for when researching buying a puppy. If people don't know what to ask, how are they to find out? What is wrong with talking about problems people have had when buying pups and NOT doing research? What is wrong with talking about potential things that can go wrong? Ideally, buying a puppy is more than just looking in the newspaper and calling the first ad you see for the breed you want. Problems don't just go away by pretending there isn't a problem.

I didn't see anyone slamming Tink for what she is doing. Personally, I was just asking questions. If you don't ask-you don't learn.

[Dobie]

I think the thing that bothers me about some mixed breed dog breeders (I'm not directing this at you Tink, more the puppy mills out there) is that the breeders represent these dogs as purebred animals to the uneducated buyer.

I can't tell you the number of people I have run into who say they have a "Purebred" puggle or maltipoo.

Best of luck with the puppies, hope all goes well with the delivery. You said she's an experienced mother, so I'm sure everything will be fine.

I was going to stay out this one as I know nothing about breeding and genetics.

But I do have to say that I find it concerning that someone made a thread about their dog, and members talked freely about it, along with breeding practices and other issues pertaining to pet ownership.....But when people started asking questions that could be construed as debatable, it was suggested that maybe those comments should be talked about on a dog forum.

To a new member like myself, that comes across very confusing because the original thread was about dogs and breeding, so it's assumed that any responses pertaining to that subject would be allowed?

I am a member of several forums where people disagree all the time, but it never causes discourse or hurt feelings because the members are very mature about it. I think the same could be said for this thread. I don't think it should be censored just because there is a difference of opinions. Questioning things is the best way to learn, I think. As long as both parties are respectful of others, I don't see any harm in debatable threads.

But good luck with your puppies Tink! I've only ever seen one labradoodle before at a petshop, and she was a really friendly dog, loved my kids

[pearl]

i agree wholeheartedly, gwen.
breeders as well as buyers can have things they need to learn. for the sake of the puppies people need to be open to information.
breeding and buying some types has become a fad. the more it is talked about the more people on both ends will be educated.

[Janet]

Originally Posted by catlover

Maybe this isn't so much a discussion of "genetics" as it is trying to educate people on what to look for when researching buying a puppy. If people don't know what to ask, how are they to find out? What is wrong with talking about problems people have had when buying pups and NOT doing research? What is wrong with talking about potential things that can go wrong? Ideally, buying a puppy is more than just looking in the newspaper and calling the first ad you see for the breed you want. Problems don't just go away by pretending there isn't a problem.

I didn't see anyone slamming Tink for what she is doing. Personally, I was just asking questions. If you don't ask-you don't learn.

Up until the 14th post...the discussion was a celebration of sorts about the birth of Canada's litter. Then it became questions on breeding practices...full blooded..etc.

I'm not speaking for anyone else but myself, but I personally thought that if anyone wanted more information on this, a dog forum would be a better place to get it.

There are so many dog forums out there and that's where those type of discussions belong. That is why so many of us come here (that belong to other dog forums) so we do not have to deal with being interrogated and opinions being shoved in our directions when opinions were not asked for in the first place.

I sincerely hope this post doesn't sound like I'm pointing fingers or anything like that, definitely not my intent. We've just all silently agreed not to judge or condem anyone for their beliefs on any topic. We're all individuals and no one will agree on everything. We've even wrote about politics here, but not once did anyone's feeling get hurt or feel they were being judged by who they were wanting to vote for. We'd just like to keep it that way.

But for us new members, we were not aware of this way of posting ya'll have. I don't speak for everyone, but I think if we would have known that, no one would have said anything. Breeding and genetics do go hand in hand, and the thread was about breeding, so I can understand how someone could innocently bring up something pertaining to it.

I guess I just see it as a double standard. Like for example, say someone started a thread that said, "I'm voting for Obama, he's the best person in the world and I think he would make a good president" and numerous responses after it agreed with the OP. But then someone said, "I'm sorry, I don't agree. McCain is the best, and he should be the president". And all of a sudden, the person whose views were different from everyone else's was told that they needed to take their views to a political forum, as it was not appropriate for the forum it was on. Isn't that a form of censoring someone's opinion? I can certainly understand if a remark was rude or offensive, but if someone merely states their opinion, I guess I just don't see why their comment carries less weight then everyone else's.

Sorry for stepping on any toes. Just trying to understand how everything works...